"Addiction takes, but Christ gives." • Beyond The Sermon

Well, hello and welcome to beyond the Sermon, a Bethany podcast, where we have the privilege of digging deeper into our Sunday messages. I am Tammy Dalao, and today we are joined with a new face for all of you, Natalie Kerby and Pastor Steve Musto. Yeah, we're doing a series under construction. Apparently we take it literally, and we have a prop behind us that's under construction. That's what it is.

It's a prop. It's a prop. Yeah. No, we are literally under construction in many places right now. So that's a good thing.

Good planning. Good planning. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Almost like we planned it, but we didn't. But God did. All right, well, let's dive in. I'm excited to do today's this week's message.

All right, so, Natalie, I don't think you've ever sat in these chairs before. Have you been with us on a podcast? We are so excited you're here. And part of the reason that we asked you to be here is because we are walking through proverbs and we're talking about wisdom in. And specifically this week, Pastor Steve is going to be talking about wisdom in alcohol.

And just tell us a little bit about yourself that will help people understand why you're. Why we've asked you to be here. So. Sure. So, yeah, Again, my name is Natalie Kirby, and I, about eight months ago, started working at Adult and Teen Challenge Wisconsin.

And so we have a location here in lacrosse that is specifically supporting women recovering from alcohol or other substance abuse. But then we're also going to be opening a men's center this summer in Wausau. Awesome. That's awesome. And Adulting Challenge is one of our partners here at Bethany.

So we've been involved with them for several years and do a lot of different things. Financial support, but that's just a very small part of it. The bigger part of it is fostering relationships and helping with, in many cases, re entry for women back into a sober life. And Adulting Challenge is not just recovery. It's specifically based in Christ.

Right. And so tell us a little bit about that. What. How does this different than just someone goes and they live in a place and they're not drinking for a while, and then they feel better. How does.

How is this form a Christian perspective in them? Sure. So we have clients that come from all different backgrounds, maybe someone who's never heard of the gospel before, maybe people that grew up in a church home of some sort. And so we get really different levels of understanding of who is God, who is Jesus, and All the questions that could come with that. And within our program, we really specifically, from a staff perspective, work with the community to meet their needs.

And so when somebody comes in, like we might have someone that comes in with a backpack, they might not have any of their general clothing needs that are met. So we work with the community and from like a financial standpoint to make sure that people have like the proper regular gear that you'd want to have, hygiene items, anything that you can think of. You know, sometimes people are coming homeless, sometimes people are coming court ordered from jail. Sometimes people have tried every other secular rehab center that is around. And we're kind of the last hope.

We're a 12 month residential program. And so for a lot of people in addiction, 12 months is extremely overwhelming. A lot of times people are more likely to sign up for a 30 or a 90 day program. But again, what we've just found from a recovery standpoint, like really re entering life and doing things, you know, having new opportunities, you need more time to get to the root causes that led them to addiction, either with alcohol, with drug abuse, or with both. Yeah.

And from the Christ standpoint, you know, we have a spiritual care coordinator on site, and so she does a lot of classes where we're reintegrating, like emotional regulation, while also reading through the Bible. And how does like, Christ want us to handle those things and talking about just like how to heal with Jesus at the center. Reliving and experiencing. We have a time frame in our program six months in, where they do something called defining moments. And that's where they are recording the most defining moments of their life that may have led to their addiction and rewiring and walking through what that looks like from a psychological perspective, but also like asking like, where was God in all of this?

Yeah, so go. Yeah, go. I could keep talking about this forever. Well, I know for you, Natalie, this was something really new. It's not like you grew up in a home where alcohol was an issue or had people close to you that way.

I know we'll jump into Pastor Steve's sermon, but what has been your takeaway as you've been doing this? What have you learned serving there? And I know there's so many things. Yeah, I was about to say that's a broad and vague question of the biggest things that I've learned is just like addiction, like, just runs deeper, you know, for most of our clients that are coming in, things that may have led to their exposure to whatever their, like, substance abuse might have been. Let's Say alcohol in this instance, typically, you know, it's not alcohol at 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 years old.

But it's like events in life that may have happened when people are really young, that may have impacted them, that may not have had healing in a certain area. And then they had exposure to something that maybe made them feel better for a little bit. And I think one of the biggest things that I've learned from my clients is that like addiction takes more from you than it will ever give. And so in the moment when addiction is starting, it feels like it's giving them something. And now when they're looking to be in recovery, they really recognize that it stole more from them than it gave.

Yeah. Wow. I was thinking about while you're talking about it. So most addicts are indented denial about what's really going on in their lives and that they're addicts. And then there are these steps of acceptance before they accept help and get into treatment.

And one of the steps of acceptance is when they finally say, yes, I need help. There is an automatic, how fast can I knock this out and get back to my life? Sure, I don't want to deal with this at all if I don't have to. But I know I need to do something, so I'm going to do something. But what's the quickest thing I can do?

Sure. So a 12 month residential treatment program is not number one on the list. So here's what, what you're getting. If you're opting into that or you're being opted into that, you are either at the end of your rope where you've decided, okay, I've tried everything else, I can't do anything else. Or these are some of the folks who treatment programs have not worked for.

Or it's someone who's ready to take it really seriously and say, I am committed to this. And so there in adulting challenge, you have a wide variety of different women who are at different stages. And then of course you've got anybody who enters the program. If they're in week one, you've got somebody also who's at week 50. And so lots of different people at lots of different stages.

But yeah, what a blessing to be able to do this. And I know it's been. We hear these stories a lot because we have several of the women who attend Bethany and we get to hear these stories quite a bit. But it is inspiring to hear what they've been through and what they've come out of. Absolutely.

But it's also Daunting to realize that. How many people have access to this stuff that can change the course of your life? Yeah. And that is one of the things that sets Adult and Teen Challenge Wisconsin apart. Our location, specifically every location, kind of runs things different.

And so I can't speak on behalf of all of adult and Teen challenges in the United States, but in general, ours is a nonprofit. And so all of the money that we have is raised by our executive director and other people on our team then. And from the work that's done there, we actually have scholarships available. So people that come in don't need to have any financing. They don't need to be able to afford it, because our donors provide the funding that make that happen.

And we've never, in the history of being open, have ever had to turn anyone away based on a financial need. That's amazing. Yeah, I know I have the privilege of being your friend, and so knowing when you've started the job and then just sitting with you last week and how much you love the job. So it's really cool to see what God is doing. Super fun.

I spent some time a few weeks ago with a lady who has graduated about five years ago, and there was just a connection with another friend. And there were a bunch of us together, together, celebrating both ladies and to hear the people that have been with Adult and Teen Challenge for years and the stories, I mean, they're talking and telling stories, and literally they're like, look at the goosebumps. Just to see the transformation and what God can do. So thank you for doing that. No, it's a privilege.

All right, so we are in Proverbs, and we are talking about alcohol, specifically this Sunday. And I just need to tell you that it's confusing because Jesus first miracle is turning water into wine into wine. Yeah. And so that's a real thing. And then we look at these verses in Proverbs that make you feel like, what are you doing?

You should probably never have a drink. So how do we reconcile that? Yeah, big question. Let's just start really well. So here's the thing.

For years, there was a belief in Christianity, and this was actually taught. I've been in churches where this is taught that the wine described in the Bible is not actually wine, that it's actually grape juice, and that there's no alcohol in it. And this was an invented idea based on the fact that there seemed to be a contradiction in the Bible. On one hand, alcohol is a vice. And there was particularly a time in our country, there have been in our country, periods of time when alcohol has been very frowned upon.

I would argue that we're in one right now. It's different. It's not that it's not socially acceptable. It used to be not socially acceptable. It's still socially acceptable.

But this generation that's in college right now is the least interested in alcohol of any generation in like 50 years or something. I just read the stats on it. They are not drinking. And it's actually the alcohol industry is figuring out, what do we do? They're not drinking at the rate that my generation, our generation did, certainly.

Well, I'm. I'm wondering if part of the reason is. I mean, my story is I had an alcoholic daddy, and I saw what that did to our family. And so there was a period of time where there was absolutely no alcohol in my world because I had seen the damage. Is this generation seeing the damage of alcohol?

Like, I wonder why? Possibly. And I think there's a positive piece of that that I would say, yes, I think that's true. I think this generation is very aware of disparity. And one of the things that alcohol does is that it unfairly, in an imbalanced way, impacts women.

Men and women get drunk equally. The numbers are equal, roughly equal. I think they are. But when they're in an environment, men and women are in an environment, men don't get abused. No, not in near the numbers that women get abused.

It's 10 to 1. And so it unfairly, over consumption, unfairly targets women. So certainly there's a piece of this where there's a generation concerned about that, but there are health aspects to it. And they're starting to say, wait a second, I don't know that this is good for our health. So alcohol right now is the third leading cause of death in our country.

But heart disease and cancer are 1 and 2. But the problem with that stat is how many of them, how much of heart disease and cancer is being caused by alcohol and as an indirect or direct cause. And so it really is just huge. It's a much bigger problem than we think. So for years we tried to make an excuse for this, but it's just not true.

Archaeologically. We can actually scrape residue out of these things and see what's in them. And there's alcohol. It's just wine. I mean, people have been making wine for thousands of years in the exact same way that we make it now.

And this is wine. I don't know if I was taught that it wasn't alcohol, but it was a much lower percentage of alcohol. I mean, I know I was taught that for sure. So not true? No.

Okay. No, it's the same thing. And so we got to grapple with that. So here's really where we're going to land is on this idea that it's so much easier for us as human beings to just make a rule. Yeah, right.

Like, you're allowed to do this, you are not allowed to do that. And here's the line in between. We go, oh, great, okay, that's easy to follow. But when we try to make everything a rule in the Bible, and it's why people do that, they try to make a rule, black or white, right or wrong. And the vast majority of our Christian life is not that.

It's God asking us to go through our lives and engage and interact with other people and with him and to hold beliefs and teachings in the tension of all those relationships and bring to bear and bring to application different things at different times. And so the answer to the alcohol problem is Jesus drank wine. Absolutely, he did. And he said at the Lord's supper, he said, this will be the last time I drink wistfully. This will be the last time I drink this.

This will be the last time I drink this on earth until after all of this is over. And then I'll be able to enjoy wine again with my friends. And so there's even this indication that this was an enjoyable thing. And I think we're going to show that that's okay. It should be.

But the problem with it is the overconsumption of it. But we weaponize everything that way. I mean, can I just read the Proverbs 23 verse for you? Because I feel like this. I feel like this is part of the reason we've landed where people have landed where they've landed.

So Proverbs 23, 29, 31 says, who has woe, who has sorrow, who has conflicts, who has complaints, who has wounds for no reason, who has red eyes, those who linger over wine, those who go looking for mixed wine, don't gaze at wine because it is red, because it gleans in the cup and goes down smoothly. Yeah, I totally understand. Read that. Read that list again. And let's see, as you think about it, some of the clients just read that again.

Who has woe, sorrow, conflicts, complaints, wounds for no reason, Red eyes. Yeah. And you've probably seen woe and sorrow and conflicts with the ladies that you get to work with. Absolutely. Yep.

Yeah, I would. I would say that that is Everybody I've ever dealt with that's in addiction, that is a mark of the. And often they use to escape those things and they have those wounds and they have woe and sorrow and they use it to escape and run away from that. And I know you started this series saying that these are not promises or even laws. And so by not drinking, if you look at this and say I'm not going to drink because there's still woe and there's still sorrow, this isn't a promise, correct?

Yeah, but more than that, it's like it's not that you won't have sorrow or woe if you don't drink, it's just that you're not going to have them caused by that. Natalie, one of the things I'm wondering about, how has your time working in Adult Teen Challenge, has it altered your perspective at all on either alcohol or drugs or the people who use them? I mean has it changed? Do you think you were like kind of of one mind when you came in and then has it changed how you see it A little bit. One of the most eye opening things for me.

So we have like our 12 month residential program where women are living there. It's you know, 12 months long. It's a long period of time that they're there. But then we also have our aftercare transitional housing so when they graduate they have the opportunity to also apply to live in our aftercare housing where they're working a lot of them honestly in an accessible place because transportation is a huge barrier for our clients when they graduate. One of them shared that she's trying to relive and relearn how to do everything sober.

And so she was like, I'm learning how to go on a hike and do it sober. I'm learning how to go to the store and do it sober. Just like really basic things that like I never would have thought about before because I think maybe if you're not exposed to people with addiction, you maybe are making like assumptions of like oh, they're always like at a bar or some stereotype that might come with alcohol consumption. But in like reality it's like, oh, I did all of those things before under the influence. Now I'm trying to learn how to do these things sober minded and enjoy them.

And so I think to answer your question, what's really changed things for me is I get to like watch them relearn how to live life life even in the program itself because I, I'm on the program coordinating side of things like going with them to volunteer at like the hunger task force. Like they're volunteering and they're learning like how to interact with people and be exposed to things in different. Hear other people talking maybe about alcohol and learning how to navigate those situations through a sober lens. And that's been really eye opening to me where I'm like teaching them, giving suggestions of like, oh, you could, you could do this for fun. And I'm like, how often do I even like, take for granted the things that I do for fun that I never experienced under like the influence in that way or anything?

And I'm like, oh, yeah, there are ways, like you can have a ton of fun without being under the influence. And that's like the major thing that we help walk them through as they're kind of navigating both recovery and like that re entry process. Like, they're working with people that don't know the Lord. They're exposed to all different types of environments and people then. So it's like, what do you, what do you do and how do you view all that?

And that's been the most eye opening experience for me is like, wow, hiking, going for a walk, going out to dinner, all of those different things. Traveling. Traveling, yeah. Getting on a plane. There are people who couldn't get on a plane without having a few drinks and.

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, that's so good. I think I grew up believing. I don't know that anybody taught me this, but I just kind of picked up on that.

People who are addicts are weak and they just can't say no. And that's the problem. And there's just so much more to it than that. There is absolutely a component of genetics in all of it that often comes in. But then there's also trauma.

I mean, trauma is a huge part of this. And you see it in family. If you ever do your family tree, if you have addiction in your family tree, you can do it. You can see it, and it shows up in the leaves of that tree or in the branches of that tree. It's something to see that's notable in my family.

I did at one point, I kind of did a family tree. And we didn't have a lot of addiction really on either side. On my mom's side or my dad's side. It's just not there. There are a lot of things, but that's not one of them.

At least not alcohol or drug addiction. And for Andy and I, our family tree is filled with leaves of addiction. Like, if you are having fun. If you were having a family gathering, there is alcohol involved. Right.

So. Yeah. Well, we're going to talk about in the message, how do we navigate it then? What is a Christian way of navigating alcohol? And how do we do it in a way that isn't inventing rules that don't exist or putting in place moratoriums on things that God never intended?

That's the message. Yeah. It'll be a great Sunday. Well, thank you for joining us, Natalie. Yeah, thanks for having me.

And thank you for joining us. Have a great week. Bye. Bye.